Is This a Perfect Storm for Silver -

Welcome to this week’s Market Wrap Podcast, I’m Mike Gleason.
Coming up in a moment, Money Metals CEO Stefan Gleason is interviewed on the popular Investing News YouTube channel, and he gets into a bunch of important topics. One of the biggest questions is why investors in the West are still sitting out this two-year rally in gold – a period over which the yellow metal has doubled in price. Stefan also reveals what metals and items folks ARE buying these days, gives his take on rumors of a formal gold revaluation, reports on Money Metals' recent efforts to further eliminate sales and income taxes on gold and silver, and a whole lot more.
So, be sure stick around for an insightful interview with Money Metals’ CEO, coming up after this week’s market update. And if you enjoy this material please do us a favor and like, rate and subscribe to this podcast wherever you consume this content.
Well, silver and gold hav0065 rallied strongly here on Friday after the release of weak employment numbers from August. The market now believes it's a certainty that the Fed will resume rate cuts this month, with the only question being whether they cut a quarter or a half point.
It makes sense that gold is so strong. Tariff turmoil, a weak dollar, debt problems, central bank issues, and bad economic data tend to be positive for gold. But the bigger story lately has been silver.
The poor man's gold zoomed through $35 this summer, touched $40, and then blasted through the $40 resistance zone only weeks later. It’s the first time silver has eclipsed $40 since 2011 and it's only spent a few weeks above this nominal price level ever.
Looking at the market action here for the week, silver is up 3.7% now to check in at $41.23 an ounce. Gold is seeing a real nice bump here today and is over $3,600 an ounce now for the first time ever. Currently gold trades at $3,611 and is up more than $160 on the week or 4.7%.
Platinum is up 1.7% to come in at $1,396 and finally palladium is up 3.0% to check in at $1,140 as of this Friday late morning recording.
So, what is driving this latest bull run?
First, lower interest rates are considered bullish for the metals, given that they are non-yielding assets. A lower rate environment means a lower opportunity cost for holding them.
There has also been a move into safe havens. Last week, a federal judge held that most of President Donald Trump’s tariffs were unconstitutional. That has created a significant level of uncertainty in the markets.
Worries about Fed independence and some soft economic data contributed to the pivot to safe havens as well.
This is taking place in an environment that was already cautious. September and October have historically been rough months for stocks. While it may be nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophecy, the number of times it’s been mentioned in the mainstream financial media indicates it is on people’s minds.
More fundamentally, silver is getting a boost from tight silver supplies, particularly a decline in liquidity in the London market.
This started last summer when tariff worries drove a significant amount of metal out of London and into the U.S.
This occurred in a silver supply environment that was already tight. Demand outstripped the silver supply for the fourth consecutive year in 2024. The structural market deficit came in at 148.9 million ounces. That drove the four-year market shortfall to 678 million ounces, the equivalent of 10 months of mining supply.
When demand outstrips mining and recycling output, industrial users of the metal are forced to wade into the market to access existing stocks of silver. This pushes the price higher.
Industrial demand set a record for the fourth straight year in 2024.
Even before the tariff-related outflows, physical silver was already moving out of London. Silver holdings peaked in 2021 at 1,180 million ounces. That was down 30 percent by the end of last year.
Strong demand for physical silver in India has also contributed to this drawdown in silver stocks within Europe. Silver jewelry and investment demand have remained strong despite a series of record highs in rupee terms. Demand is expected to remain robust as the country enters into the wedding and festival season.
Metals Focus pointed out that even though there is plenty of silver in London, about 80 percent of it is held against physically backed silver ETFs. That’s the highest share since LMBA vault data became available in 2016.
While silver supplies tighten overall, there is still plenty of untapped demand in the marketplace.
Despite rising prices, investor activity has remained subdued in key sectors, particularly in the U.S. For example, silver coin and bar sales have shrunk so far this year.
Silver Institute data shows that weak demand in the physical silver investment market is almost entirely being driven by Americans. Asian demand has been robust – especially in India. European silver demand has shown signs of recovery, although it is coming off a relatively low base.
However, in the U.S., we’ve seen investors taking advantage of higher prices and selling to take a dollar profit. This is <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2025/05/08/gold-demand-diverges-east-surges-while-us-sells-off-004042">similar to the dynamic in the gold market</a>, where U.S. investors have also remained on the sidelines.
According to the Silver Institute, retail silver investment is down about 30 percent in the U.S.
When U.S. investors finally get into the game, it could drive silver prices even higher.
Here at Money Metals, we believe Americans will start to look at silver as a bargain, and even when it's at $45 or $50 or $55. This interest in silver could gain momentum, especially if it gets over that $50 price which we think will happen next year. If silver breaks through $50, it's likely to go quite a bit higher from there.
Well now, without further delay, let’s get right to this week’s interview.
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Charlotte McLeod: I am Charlotte McLeod with investing news.com, and here today with me is Stepan Gleason, CEO of Money Metals. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you.
Stefan Gleason: Great to be back, Charlotte. Thank you.
Charlotte McLeod: Really good to be catching up with you. It's been a year since our last conversation, so we have so much to go through.
And where I thought we could begin is of course with gold. So Bryce has been on an impressive run, although right now we're in a little bit of a, a summer slowdown or cool down. I wanted to ask if you can set the stage by talking about where you see gold in the current cycle.
Stefan Gleason: Well, I think we're still very early in, in what will, will be a very exciting long-term bull run, uh, in gold.
And you know, the last two to three years has really been kind of a, a, a sleeper period, um, at least in terms of western demand for gold and silver. We just haven't seen much. Um, in fact we, at least on the retail side, you know, and as money metals is one of the largest online precious metals dealers in America.
We, we saw more demand on the retail side during COVID, which was before gold and silver really started taking off, uh, and broke above 2000 like it did about two years ago. But since then, since that breakout, we've actually seen very little participation from the US retail investor and even at the institutional level, only in the last few months that we started to see net inflows into the ETFs.
And so, at least as far as the West is concerned, it's been sitting out, it's been sitting out on this massive run in gold that's taken us from 2000 to almost $3,500 an ounce. And that is, you know, interesting because obviously that's a big part of potential demand is the West. But, you know, we've seen lots of good results in the stock market other than, uh, uh, you know, in April during, uh, right after so-called Liberation Day, there was a big, you know, downturn and, and then by the way, gold demand picked up in, in the US during that period of time.
But for the most part, gold has had a lot of Com competitors. For Western investors, it's whether it's been crypto, the stock market itself, other assets. Obviously the bond market has struggled a little bit, but the stocks have done just fine. And so I don't think people are really feeling the impetus in the west to buy gold and silver.
And in fact, we've seen an increase in selling, uh, than what we have store historically seen from retail investors who've been sitting on gold for a long time. And many people are monetizing those gains and, and taking cash. I don't think that's necessarily a good idea for the long term, but that's, we're seeing that happen.
We're seeing a little less buying and we're seeing more selling. And so, you know, what's really been happening has been. Story of Asia and of central banks and that, and, and of course also in reaction to the weaponization of the dollar, the SWIFT system, which you've talked about on the show many times.
So those are the things that have been driving the demand. And I think, you know, that continues. You, you see less price sensitive buying from central banks. They continue to buy, uh, you know, Asia is still very strong. If the West kicks in, while those things are, are ongoing in, in the East and with central banks, then I think we, we see a very, very exciting further advance in gold prices.
And I do think that will be happening over the next year or two. Um, but you know, obviously we're in a big sideways move here in the last few months, but gold has done extremely well. Um, it's not getting the credit that it should it's way under owned in the US and, and even in Europe. Uh, but I think that's changing.
So I think we're still very early. Um, and the reasons behind people buying gold and silver are, are only increasing and the need to, to own it. So I think we're, we're looking good. Um, I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily say that's gonna be the biggest performer among the precious metals, uh, going forward, but it's been fantastic up to this point and I think it's gonna continue.
Charlotte McLeod: Great overview and you really went right to the heart of one of the reasons I wanted to have you back, which is to find out what you are seeing from customers at your at money metals. Mm-hmm. So if we can maybe go in a little bit more to that. I think the key question to ask is, we haven't seen the participation from the West yet.
What brings those Western investors back in? Do we have to see declines in those other assets? You mentioned? Is there something else at play? What are you thinking?
Stefan Gleason: Yeah, I think that's the number one driver. I think the stock market continuing to be elevated and do well is probably the biggest factor in why, uh, investors are not coming into gold in, in, in droves like they are in other parts of the world.
So I think, I think there's still a love affair with paper assets in the West. I think that people are very comfortable with that and, and, and frankly, they haven't been penalized for owning them. Stocks have done quite well, at least in nominal terms. I think, you know, we're gonna need to see that reverse.
Uh, and, and when that does, that's when I think we, we see the US demand pick up big time in gold and silver. And then also I think at some point, if you get a runaway galloping, uh, upward move, then there's the fear of missing out starts kicking in more the speculative mindset. But again, in a backdrop when other.
Assets are doing well in nominal terms, it's hard to, to see, you know, a total switch into the hard assets. Like I think we'll eventually have.
Charlotte McLeod: And you know, as we've been talking about, we do have the gold price still historically elevated right now, although of course we're in a little bit of a pullback at the moment.
I think maybe some people might be looking at it and thinking, well, it's, it's a little bit high priced at the moment. So I'm wondering if you could go into, if people are looking at buying physical gold, where might they be able to get the best value right now?
Stefan Gleason: Hmm. Well, uh, pretty much everything is lower in terms of premiums, you know, and that's the amount that you pay above the spot price to buy any kind of physical form of gold or silver, whether it be a bar or a coin.
So, you know, American Eagle coins have come way down. You can acquire those very close to spot now. They were, you know, $200 over spot. Not too long ago. Um, really the most efficient way would be like a one ounce gold bar, a 10 ounce, a five ounce gold bar, a kilo bar. These are available at very low premiums to spot.
Um, and so, and frankly, probably the lowest, certainly the lowest premiums we've seen in about six years over spot. Especially in per percentage terms. And so it, it, and that's again, that's a reflection of lower retail demand, which is also manifested in more people selling, which has caused the premium structure to fall because, uh, you know, not only are, you know, there's more secondary market inventory.
These things are resold, they're still in beautiful condition. You know, condition isn't really an issue when you're buying, uh, a gold bar or even a bull coin. But the point is that there's a lot of this stuff available that's caused the premiums to come down if you're a mint. Frankly, you're doing quite poorly right now.
There's very little need, at least in the, in the west, uh, and certainly in the US to, um, to, for newly minted product because there's so much secondary market product and a lot of the newly minted product costs more for the same item than the secondary market. And so a lot of mints don't have much to do right now.
Uh, whereas three to four years ago, they were unbelievably busy. Um. So I think, you know, look for lo always, we always feel you should look for the lowest form or one of the, you know, look at the lowest cost ways of getting into gold bullion. Make sure you own it directly. Uh, stay away from exotic types of things like special run, you know, premium items.
Look at the melt value, understand what the resale value is. If you were to sell that right back to the same dealer at the same time, what would they pay you avoid? The, the dealers that are advertising on TV with the high markups and the celebrity spokespeople, they're, they're usually trying to get you into something sp supposed.
Least special or collectible, that's not the way to do it. Um, so yeah, in the physical form, I would say your best deal is gonna be one ounce bars, gold eagle coins, things like that. Um, so on, on silver, a hundred ounce bars, 10 ounce bars. Silver rounds are very, very low priced, a way of getting access to silver.
So, you know, we like the bars in the rounds and then bullion coins.
Charlotte McLeod: Really good to get your thoughts there. And of course we will go over to silver in just a little bit. But before we go, just a bit more on gold, so you outlined a number of the important gold demand drivers right now, and we talked a little bit about the price.
What do you think is it that pushes gold into its next leg higher? We're mentioning buying in the west. Is there, is it that, is it something else that you're looking at that that causes that next push?
Stefan Gleason: I think the Fed resuming the rate cuts certainly is gonna be a bullish factor for physical gold. Um, and I, I think that there's still some debt problems out there and if the, the Fed switches into qe, um, you know, gold does well in a negative real interest rate environment.
And, and so that obviously that that means that the interest rates are lower than the inflation rate. Well, you know, right now inflation is higher than. You know, the Fed probably wants, um, uh, but they're not willing to necessarily stick with the rates where they are. And probably, you know, in many ways, based on the true rate of inflation, they already are in a negative real interest rate environment.
But if they start cutting, uh, which I expect them to do this fall, and you know, probably, you know, half a point by the end of the year, uh, I think that that kind of environment, and especially if it continues. Leads to steep more steeply negative real rates. And that is a very bullish condition for gold.
And then if you add, you know, a stock market rollover into that, uh, then I think, you know, I think that's a good combination. Now this, you know, there's been, talk about this gold revaluation concept. I, I really think that that's overblown the idea that, I mean, it is technically possible, you know, it is technically possible for the US government to change the statutory or to change the book value of gold on its books.
But doing that doesn't inherently. Affect the gold market, um, unless they go to the Federal Reserve, which holds gold certificates and demand more cash in return for the gold certificates, which then would be worth way more in nominal terms, because right now they're priced at $42.20 per ounce. So I think, you know, I.
And I don't think they're gonna do that, by the way. And even, and even if they did that, you know, the, the Fed is not, and the treasury's not gonna open up gold and start buying it on the open market. So I think it's more of an accounting trick. It may lead to a little bit more funding for the government if they were to do that, but I don't think they're considering to do that, at least not in the near term.
I do think that re monetizing gold through, you know, is, is part of the solution ultimately to the problems we have. But I don't see that being a sort of a near term idea. And it's not really what the treasury, I don't believe it's what the Treasury Secretary was talking about when he said he was looking at monetizing the asset side of the balance sheet.
I, I think that was. Misunderstood. And in fact he, he himself said, that's not what I was talking about. So if you believe him, I kind of do.
Charlotte McLeod: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Fair enough that that's an interesting point there to make and a really good topic to go into. Very timely. Just another, another timely one that's kind of been in the headlines lately is the tariff situation around gold.
Do you think we've seen resolution there in terms of all the, all the turmoil?
Stefan Gleason: Yeah, I do. I don't think there's gonna be import tariffs on physical gold bullion. Um, I think it, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's been completely chaotic as we've seen. And even that thing, a few weeks ago, there were refineries that were asking for clarity on importing rules around kilo bars and other items.
And, you know, the, the, the, I guess the customs came out with a memo or in response, they responded to one of these and said, oh yeah, there's gonna be this, what, 39% tariff on, on importing kilo bars from Switzerland. That, that was crazy. Uh, they don't, one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing. Uh, you know, obviously the Trump administration reversed that, that bureaucratic decision there, that was done simply in response to, uh, an inquiry.
But I know that a lot of folks, including us who have been importing gold from Europe, are needing, have been asking for and needing clarity, uh, on what's happening with the tariffs. But I think it's pretty darn clear at this point that there's no intention to put, uh, tariffs on gold, physical, gold imports.
And I think that would be very damaging and destructive if they did.
Charlotte McLeod: Well, it's, it's good to hear it from from you because you're obviously closely involved with that. So I think that gives us a nice idea of many of the factors impacting gold right now. Of course we, we wanna talk about silver as well, so the price has been on the move this year, although we didn't get past that $40 level, I think people are wondering if that's gonna happen.
If you look at silver, what do you think is driving that move?
Stefan Gleason: Well, I think it's catch up. I think definitely, uh, silver typically will start slow and then catch up as the, as people move more into the metals, we're starting to see that transition where silver is, is, is finally getting a little bit of love.
Um, I think it's, you know, it's still at 88 to one. It's a massively high ratio. Historically. It's not 106 to one like it was, you know, briefly in, in April. Um, but it's historically very high and I think that. You know, that is what we see happen As the Gold Bull market matures, silver starts catching up and then eventually outperforms.
So I think we're kind of in that transition period where the gold bull bull market is well underway and silver is starting to, you know, make a move. Now, you know, there's also this tremendous, uh, you know, his historical resistance at $50 that goes back all the way to 1980. That's, that's over $200 in today's, uh, prices.
So silver is dramatically less. Uh, of course it only briefly gone over $20 in 1980. It wasn't like it was there for very long, but I think that there's a lot of eyes on the silver market and as it breaks above 40, which I think is a key level, uh, and then goes runs, and I think it will run towards 50 probably by next spring.
If it breaks above 50, that is going to be a huge signal, a huge buy signal. And that's when I think you're gonna see a lot of attention turn to silver in the mainstream. You're gonna see people see that they can get silver much cheaper. You know, gold is very, very expensive. $3,500 an ounce. It probably will be higher when this happens.
But the point is that people start looking at silver as a bargain. And even though it's at 45 or $50 or $55, I think it's gonna gain momentum. And especially if it gets over that $50 price. Um, you know, I, I do think that we're gonna be challenging the $50 level by next year. Um, so we'll see. And then if it breaks and, and I think when it breaks through that it's gonna, it's gonna go quite, quite a bit higher from there.
Charlotte McLeod: Yeah, those, those higher silver price predictions are definitely starting to sound more and more realistic. And what you're saying ties into another point I wanted to raise with you is obviously every investor is different, but if you're looking at gold versus silver, what would you see as the better, the better precious metals buy right now?
Stefan Gleason: Well, I mean, I always feel that gold is something everybody should start with. Um, it's more stable, it's more, it's, it's, it's, it's a much more liquid market. It doesn't move up and down as much. So it's a little bit more sleep easy kind of metal. Uh, I think everybody should start with that. Um, once you have a position in gold, then yes, increase with an allocation to silver.
It does have other variables. It has those economic, uh, you know, the economic demand. It still has monetary demand. It's a bit of a schizophrenic metal. Um, it has, it has, uh. You know, has both qualities of the economic and the monetary, and sometimes they work against each other. Uh, but I think, so it's a, it's a bump your ride.
People that are new to investing in precious metals should probably be careful because you can get very scared and, and sort of wa you know, forced out of your position if you're, if you're a little bit, uh, inexperienced. So people shouldn't take on more exposure with silver if they can't handle the volatility.
But that said, I mean, at this point I would start. Prioritizing silver. If you already have gold, maybe even get as much to, to a 50 50 allocation. Um, if you have a very long-term view of precious metals, then I think silver will do way better over the longer term than gold. Uh, but if you have a six, 12 or 1824 month mindset, then you're probably gonna be better off with, with, uh, with gold.
So, you know, it just depends on your risk appetite. It's a much more exciting metal, and I think long term it has more upside.
Charlotte McLeod: Very fair. And I'll throw platinum into the mix as well. I wanted to bring that one up to you. Yeah. Because the price has been on the move in the last couple of months. So where would you fit it in and are you seeing interest from people right now?
Stefan Gleason: A little bit, I mean, a little bit more than usual in, in terms of money, metals breakdown of gold versus silver. Um, it's, it's only started to kind of get back where silver's close to the demand of gold. Um, so, but, but platinum and palladium is like one to 2% platinum maybe, uh, last year, maybe one and a half percent.
1% and, and maybe moving towards 2% of the overall revenues and, and sales volume that we do. So it, it is very low in proportion to gold and silver, and I think that's. Appropriate. I mean, it really is a different type of metal. It's extremely economically sensitive. Um, it is obviously a tight, you know, there's some shortage, you know, indications of, of tightness and supply, uh, palladium, perhaps less so.
I, I'm very bullish on platinum, but I wouldn't put that at the center of my at. Precious metals portfolio. Um, it's, it's just another sort of diversifier and, you know, platinum has been historically at, uh, a premium to the gold price. In, in, up until about 10 years ago, it almost always was higher than gold and sometimes as much as twice as high as the gold price.
So that today we're less than half. Less than half the gold price. We were a third, a few, a few months ago, actually, two, three months ago. Just, just then. Is that when, when platinum finally started perking up. So, you know, I think that alone is a good reason to, to maybe get a little platinum exposure because of that catch up move.
Um, there's some interesting things happening in platinum on the electronic side on the. The hydrogen fuel cell batteries and things like that. Jewelry, there's, uh, jewelry demand switching from gold to platinum. Uh, and so those are other factors that are driving platinum right now. But again, I would, I would keep it as a small allocation, and that's certainly what we're seeing.
We're, we're selling more platinum, but just a little bit more.
Charlotte McLeod: Well, that context helps a lot. And now that we've spent some time on the physical precious metals, I wanted to go over to the royalty and streaming space. So this is a sector that, that you pay attention to. And before we turn the camera on, you're mentioning that Tether has taken a stake in one of the royalty and streaming companies and wanna get your thoughts on that?
I'll mention this is the second time that I'm hearing about that deal in the last week or so. So I think it is important to, to go through.
Stefan Gleason: Yeah, so Tether investments is the largest stable coin. And of course, stable coins just had, there was a big package of legislation that passed in the US where the, the posture has very much changed in the US towards the cryptocurrency market.
Instead of trying to throw everybody in jail, which is what was happening for a few years, um, they're actually embracing the, the innovation and technology around that. And stable coins are these idea, the idea of having these, uh, these. These tokens for payment that are backed by say, dollars or even gold.
Um, now Tether has the largest dollar stable coin, and it, frankly, it's an extremely profitable business for them because people are, are depositing dollars, uh, but usually from third world areas where they don't have access to banks or payment mechanisms. And so they don't necessarily mind that they're not getting interest.
And then Tether then takes those dollars and invests it mostly at first in treasuries, short term treasuries, and, and have, you know, with a four or 5% yield have been getting very large profits. Well, they've now become a very large, I think the seventh or eighth largest buyer of US government securities as a result of this mouse trap they built.
And as, as anyone who owns, owns a lot of dollars these days, um, they are getting nervous about having all the dollar exposure they have as as, which is perfectly reasonable. And so they have been now. Diversifying their investments into other things, including physical gold, which they, I think tether investments now has like $9 billion in physical gold.
They literally bought a, uh, a bunker in a nuclear bomb shelter in the middle of a Swiss mountain to store their, their physical gold, uh, to back the tether system. And they also have crypto and other assets, but they've now taken a piece of that dollar. You know, asset base and started investing in mining royalty companies.
And we're talking about a company that has $160 billion worth of reserves. Um, and so they recently bought a 50% stake in Elemental Altus, which is about a half billion dollar gold mining royalty company. And, um, this is a company I'm familiar with. I'm, I'm a part owner, a small owner in it, and I viewed that as a very bullish.
Situation, not just for Elemental, but for the royalty sector in general, to have a massive investor like that come into the sector and want to, you know, further diversify into the royalty sector, which is another more sort of safe and stable way of getting into the gold sector. Much, much less risky than owning mining stocks or, and, and certainly, uh, you know, expiration stocks, which are like lottery tickets.
So mining royalty companies are historically great performers for a lot of reasons. They, they remove a lot of the negatives. About investing in mining, you don't have the gov as much of the government risk. You don't have the operational risk, the regulatory risk. You can diversify across many assets. You don't have ongoing capital costs and you just take a percentage of, of the revenues when they come outta the ground.
So it's a great business model in and of itself, um, and to have Tether come in with their massive treasury and make a big investment there, starting with Elemental Altus and then trying to use a company like that. Uh, as maybe a catalyst to roll up other royalty companies in the space and, and make new investments.
So I think that's a very bullish factor for the royal mining royalty space. Uh, and so I'm, I'm a big fan of that space in general, and I think it's gonna get pretty interesting with, with new investors coming in like tether.
Charlotte McLeod: That's what I was going to follow up by asking. Do you think we'll see more entrants like Tether come into the royalty and streaming space or, or the gold sector in general?
Because I know, I know still among precious metals investors, there is that hesitance when it comes to external crypto focused businesses coming in.
Stefan Gleason: Yeah, I do think that the stable coins will start there. There's another one called Circle, which has the same problem. They have massive dollar stockpiles and you know that that's a depreciating asset, and so diversifying out into other assets, whether it be gold bullion or or royalty companies, I think that's quite reasonable.
I think Tether is. Attracting attention because they're the dominant player, uh, among the stable coins and others are looking at that. And, and of course there's also a lot of launching of sta stable coins. And I'm not necessarily saying I'm a big fan of stable coins and I'm not really necessarily saying that gold back stable coins are gonna be a good thing or a great thing.
You know, the, the, the thing about the dollar is it's circulates because of Gresham's law and, and that includes a, a a dollar back stable coin. It's the bad money, right? I mean, it may be a bad money connected with maybe a smart platform, maybe less regulated, maybe easier for people in other parts of the world that don't have access to banks to use, but it's still the Federal Reserve note and it's a depreciating asset, and that makes it kind of a, a, a currency.
People want to circulate like a hot potato, right? You know, so, so if you have gold, if you have a gold back, stable coin. Do you really wanna spend your gold? You know, I, I wanna save my gold. I wanna, I don't wanna spend it. So that's why the better money goes into private hoards. You know, it's called Gresham's Law.
The good money pushes the bad money out. Uh, I'm sorry, the, the, the bad money pushes the good money, uh, out of circulation and into private hoards. And the bad money is what circulates. So a dollar backed stable stablecoin is the bad money. It's just a, a kind of a cleverly, well built, enabled way of using it.
Um, so, you know, again, I'm, I'm, I'm not against cryptos. I'm not really super excited about them. I still think that, you know, hard assets are the way to go. Uh, but these developments are significant and there's certainly a lot of resources in that space. And to have that. Turn towards the gold space, which has been starved to capital, especially the mining sector for all these years.
You know, the last 15 years. I think it's a very positive development, but that doesn't mean that you have to get excited about crypto, but I think it's a reason to get excited about mining equities and particularly royalty companies.
Charlotte McLeod: I definitely. See what you're saying there. So thank you for going into that.
I think there's a lot of nuance to unpack. Yeah. And it'll be really interesting to, to see where it goes. Also wanted to go into you with, uh, policy initiatives in the US. I know you're involved in, in tracking what's going on in terms of making gold, silver, precious metals more accessible to people in the US.
So anything you would highlight there. Developments you've seen recently.
Stefan Gleason: I think that we have seen a tremendous amount of momentum pick up for sound money policy. So, so money metals is very focused, you know, obviously we're a bull dealer, we're a depository we're we, we have a, a lending program, but we also are involved in public policy in the US trying to pass laws that promote sound money.
And, and the most important of those policies, we think, in terms of enabling or re monetizing gold and silver, is to remove the taxation, the taxation around the buying of precious metals in the form of sales tax. Getting rid of the sales tax. Uh, that's number one. 45 states now have ended the sales tax in the us It was 30 states when we started, about 12 years ago, or 33, something like that.
So we've seen a big, uh, uh, uh, amount of success in the sales tax removal area. Then from the, from there is the income tax, so removing income tax when you sell. Uh, so that's a federal problem. But states also charge income tax on capital gains. And so, uh, we are now moving toward more torch. Having states encouraging states to remove the income tax and, uh, I believe six states, uh, there's eight states that don't have a state income tax, and then there's six that have affirmatively removed it from gold and silver.
So we now have 14 states that don't have income tax in gold and silver. There's other, other types of taxes on businesses that sell gold and silver. You know, and, and tax 'em on their total sales when their margins are this small. So there's other other things to do on the tax front, but the gold, uh, and silver sales tax and income tax are the top two.
And we're seeing a lot of progress. I think we passed seven bills this year. Uh, five of them were relating to taxes. Um, last year it was six. The year before it was five. Before that, it was three. 10 years ago it was, it was our first one. So I mean, we're seeing a lot of momentum. This past legislative state, uh, season here in the states, money metals saw, I think something like 30 states introduced bills.
There are about 50 or 60 bills involving sound money when, 10 or 15 years, 12 years ago, there were just a couple, three bills. So we're seeing a lot of enthusiasm and of course that's partly as a result of the things people see happening with inflation, with the monetary system. So, I mean, they're trying to do something about it and now they're seeing, hey, there are things we can do about this.
And so removing the taxes, uh, then encouraging states to own gold and silver as a reserve asset. So just recently, the last year, we had both Utah and Wyoming, uh, start a gold reserve for their states. Um, Ohio owns gold and several other states are now looking at gold reserves, bills. Um, there's other bills involving, um.
Uh, harassment of dealers and harassment of investors, privacy invasions, things like that that we're addressing. Several states have have pretty hostile laws towards the sector, so, but we think removing the friction on the buying and selling by ending the taxes, getting a state to bolster its reserves, uh, by owning gold in reserve and, and bolsters finances.
There's other proposals out there that are asking states. To engage in public-private partnerships with payment app and payment vendors in the gold, sort of gold payment apps. We have some mixed feelings about those. You know, while we think some of those ideas are well-meaning, we're not sure that the state should be embracing, uh, public-private partnership with private companies, uh, for payment app type infrastructure.
Um, and particularly since it, it could spawn a very large regulatory rulemaking process, which we're already seeing in Florida where, uh, the state of Florida on a bill that was. Sold as a sound money reform is now actually going and writing a very burdensome regulation for the entire precious metal sector, which impacts not just dealers, but anyone who stores gold and silver and also, uh, customers.
So we're, we're monitoring that area with some skepticism. Uh, but on the whole, it's a very positive, uh, set of developments. In, in, in the US for sound money at the state level, the, the federal level is a much bigger problem. That's actually where the problem originates, um, with the Federal Reserve system and, and, and Congress.
Uh, but there are some bills there. We have a bill to audit Fort Knox, including any encumbrances, you know, that may have been placed against the gold. There's a bill in the house that was introduced last month that would address that. Of course, there was a lot of talk about that a few months ago. They didn't do anything, you know, but we didn't need a PR stunt.
We didn't need a, a video walkthrough like Elon Musk was proposing. We needed an actual audit assay. Inventory and an examination of any leases, swaps, uh, pledges, other encumbrances that may have been placed against the gold. So there's the right way to do that. There's a bill that's been in introduced that hopefully will get some traction.
Uh, so we've got some things going on at the federal level, but the real, uh, excitement for the sound money movement has been at the state level where a lot of these things are being achieved.
Charlotte McLeod: Really good overview there as well. Thank you for going into that. And maybe just a, a small follow up, 'cause you're mentioning the Fort Knox audit, which did get a lot of headlines As we see these state level reserves being built up, are there mechanisms in place to have ongoing audits and tracking of that so people know that it's actually there?
Stefan Gleason: Yeah. Well, uh, the, the good thing is that the states are putting these into deposit depositories that have these procedures in place. So they're not giving it to the US government. They're giving it to the US government. There would be no audits being go going on because they don't, or at least no credible audits.
They have a process, they audit the seals. There were problems in the past in the us, in the US bull depository where seals were re repu affixed to doors that had been, had been, the seals had been broken, things had been moved. They didn't re-audit before they put the seal back on. So you can't just say it's been audited 30 years ago.
We don't have to audit again. When you open it up, something happened. It wasn't re-audit. The principles of auditing, you know, are dual controls ongoing. It's not one and done, it's an ongoing process. Whenever anything is open, like at Money Metals, depository, we open a container, it's under camera, there's two people involved.
There's, you know, there's checking, there's testing, and anytime a seal is broken it has to be re-audit. And so, and you know, private depositories, whether it be ours or others that are involved in these, in these state reserves. Are doing or should be and I think are doing the right things with eyes, but you know, they're not giving it to the US government, that's for sure.
Charlotte McLeod: Okay. Okay. That is great to hear and I will let you go, but before I do any final thoughts, you would leave with precious Metalists investors right now?
Stefan Gleason: Yeah, I, I would say, you know, we're still in a market that is really undiscovered. And, and you know, I can tell you if you ask, if you, if you ask all the people in your orbit, how many of them will own gold and silver?
I that very few, maybe one, two, 3%, maybe they're, they're not gonna tell you, which, which is probably smart. You don't, you don't wanna talk about what you own, especially if you haven't in your house or whatever. But the bottom line is. You know, less than 2% of the US public has any gold or silver whatsoever other than maybe a piece of jewelry.
Uh, and that's a problem. I think that's gonna change. I think we're very early. Um, I think, you know, as again, as the stock market. Rolls over, or inflation kind of runs away, and yet the Fed is slashing rates like there's no tomorrow. I think we're gonna see an awakening in our country and, and, and, and in North America and in Europe, uh, where we'll see a lot of people coming into this.
But right now we're very early and, uh, we're kind of on the cutting edge, you and I and, and everybody who's listening today.
Charlotte McLeod: Well, I think that's a really good place to wrap it up. So thank you so much for coming on to go over what's happening in gold and silver, and of course a little bit of platinum.
Stefan Gleason: This was great. Great. Thank you. Thanks, Charlotte.
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Some very interesting developments in the metals markets right now, and good stuff there from Money Metals CEO Stefan Gleason.
Well, that will do it for this week. Be sure to check back next Friday for our next Weekly Market Wrap Podcast. And don’t miss our second weekly podcast, the Money Metals Midweek Memo, hosted by Mike Maharrey and available each Wednesday.
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Until next time, this has been Mike Gleason with <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/">Money Metals Exchange</a>, thanks for listening and have a wonderful weekend everybody.

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