Is Silver About to Go Ballistic? | Central Banks Grabbing Gold Fast -

Welcome to this week’s Market Wrap Podcast, I’m Mike Gleason.
Coming up, don’t miss an exclusive interview with Joe Cavatoni of the World Gold Council. Joe is a market strategist with over 30 years of financial services experience and reveals how the investment world has been waking up to and embracing gold over the last several years and the shift that has taken place when it comes to the view and the acceptance of the yellow metal throughout the Western world specifically.
Mike Maharrey and Joe also discuss the massive central bank buying spree of gold and how that’s provided a bit of a floor under the price here during the recent consolidation period we’ve seen now over the past few months, and Joe explains how a desire to move towards dollar alternatives is a key driver in why so many nations are accumulating the metal.
So, stick around for that and a whole lot more during an enlightening conversation with the highly respected Joe Cavatoni of the World Gold Council, coming up after this week’s market update.
Some big price moves unfolded this week in the silver market… and the poor man's gold is looking super strong right now after breaking above the key $37 level.
The rally since early June pushed silver from $33 to over $38 as of today. That's a big move, but the white metal remains historically underpriced based on several metrics.
To begin with, there is still a historically wide gap between the price of silver and the price of gold.
The <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2024/03/25/what-is-the-gold-silver-ratio-why-should-we-pay-attention-to-it-003075">gold-silver ratio</a> tells you how many ounces of silver it takes to buy one ounce of gold. The ratio is hovering at just under 90-to-1. In the modern era, that ratio has averaged closer to 60-to-1. In other words, even with the recent rally, silver is underpriced compared to gold.
Historically, when the ratio has gotten out of whack like this, it has eventually snapped back to the mean with a surge in the price of silver. This has often happened in the midst of a gold bull rally, with silver outperforming gold.
For instance, in 2020, the gold-silver ratio set a record of 123-to-1 as Covid hysteria gripped the world. From there the ratio then plunged to around 60-to-1 as central banks around the world cranked up the money creation machine to cope with governments shutting down economies.
In another example of this snap-back, the gold-silver ratio fell to 30-to-1 in 2011 after rising to over 80-to-1 during the money creation of the Great Recession in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis.
Before the recent rally, the ratio topped out at over 100-to-1. So, silver has closed the gap some, but there is still a long way to go before we’re back to the historical average.
Silver also appears underpriced given the supply and demand dynamics.
In fact, silver demand outstripped new supply for the fourth straight year in 2024 as <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2025/04/17/silver-market-records-fourth-straight-supply-deficit-amidst-record-industrial-demand-003994">industrial demand set another record</a>.
Despite record industrial offtake, overall silver demand fell by about 3 percent to 1.16 billion ounces in 2024. This was primarily due to tepid investment demand, with coin and bar buying falling 22 percent to a five-year low.
Even so, global silver demand exceeded silver supply last year, resulting in a structural market deficit of nearly 149 million ounces.
These market deficits are expected to continue. And when the broader investing public hops on the train, we could see even larger supply shortfalls — with above-ground silver supplies slowly draining out and mine production struggling to ramp up.
Fundamentals are important. But silver has an extremely bullish technical setup with its classic “cup and handle” chart. Visit <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2025/07/10/whats-up-with-silver-its-still-on-sale-004187">MoneyMetals.com</a> for a visual of what I am talking about.
You will see the “cup” with the twin highs of around $50 per ounce in 1980 and 2011. Following the 2011 peak, we see a sharp decline in the price, followed by a sideways consolidation “handle."
The handle pattern on the chart of a stock or commodity often precedes a breakout.
This cup-and-handle pattern in silver has played out over an extremely long period of time. Historically, this longer pattern, often referred to as a secular cup and handle, portends a bigger breakout with a broader base – signaling a bigger upside case.
Gold actually followed a similar long-term pattern, resolving with a breakout to new all-time highs back in 2023.
Analyst Clive Maund argues that the technicals show <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2025/07/10/silver-upleg-imminent-004186">silver is poised for another up-leg</a> similar to the one we saw in June. We may already be seeing the start of that predicted up-leg here at the end of this week.
Taken together, the technicals and the supply and demand dynamics tell us that – despite the recent rally – silver is still on sale, and its bull market has a bright future ahead.
At the same time, we're seeing premiums on retail forms of gold and silver at multi-year lows. That means virtually all of a new purchaser's investment in bullion coins, bars, and rounds goes into ounces of the metal itself. You can find some truly great deals at <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/buy/specials">MoneyMetals.com</a> right now – such as <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/buy/silver/junk-silver">Pre-1965 silver coins</a> at just 69 cents over the spot price!
Quite frankly, the reason premiums are low is because – at least here in the U.S. – there seem to be more folks selling their gold and silver holdings than buying. That has led to a glut of inventory, and lower costs on that inventory for those wishing to step in.
Unlike Asia, the American public is not yet flocking into precious metals. Most folks here are still oblivious to its wealth protecting and wealth creating features. But as gold and silver continue to grab more headlines, that situation threatens to change.
For now, though, our Money Metals customers are among an elite few who recognize what is going on – and have been taking action.
Well, before we get to this week’s interview, let’s take a look at the market action in the metals. Gold, is having somewhat of a quiet week, up just 0.7% to come in at $3,370 an ounce.
Silver meanwhile is having a banner day after trading mostly sideways through Thursday’s close. The white metal is on a heater here today and is up over $1. It currently trades at $38.38, good for a 3.4% weekly advance and a fresh 14-year high.
Platinum is down 0.7% to trade at an even $1,400 an ounce, but its sister metal palladium is having a nice run, up 6.9% or $80 on the week – with most of that coming here today – to check in at $1,240 an ounce as of this Friday morning recording.
And finally, we’d be remiss if we didn’t mention copper, which – thanks to new tariff fears – is up 10% to come in at $5.59 a pound. Doctor Copper, as they call it, reached an all-time high of $5.69 just two days ago and has pulled back a bit since that midweek peak.
Well now, for more on the recent action in the metals markets, let’s get right to this week’s exclusive interview.
<div class="pl-3"><img class="mx-auto md:float-right p-3" src="https://www.moneymetals.com/uploads/content/mike-maharrey-and-dr-vieira-podcast-img.jpg" alt="Mike Maharrey and Larry Reed" width="450" height="180" loading="lazy" />
Mike Maharrey: Greetings. I'm Mike Maharrey, a reporter and analyst here at Money Metals, and I'm joined today by Joe Cavatoni. Joe is a market strategist with the World Goal Council and he brings to that job over three decades of experience in the financial services industry. How are you doing today, Joe?
Joe Cavatoni: I'm fantastic, Mike. Thank you very much for having me.
Mike Maharrey: Well, it's my pleasure and I really appreciate you taking a little bit of time out of your day to chat with me and to kind of get started, I think most people are probably familiar with the World Goal Council, but what's kind of your role over there? What do you do?
Joe Cavatoni: Sure. My role as a market strategist is to share that responsibility with a colleague that sits in London and really basically take our content, our research, our insights, bring that to the market, make sure that investors or consumers of gold are understanding what we're seeing in the market and actually enabling them to be better skilled and trust the market more and actually make better decisions around how to own gold and how much to get involved in the market when it comes to whether it's a portfolio or from the consumer side or even just understanding the motivating factors of what's moving the market right now.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, good stuff. Do you find that, and I'm kind of interested in putting the American perspective, which let's be honest, we Americans can be a little bit myopic and kind of putting that in a global context. Do you find that here in the United States that a lot of people aren't really kind of plugged in or aware of gold as an investment asset at all?
Joe Cavatoni: If you were to ask me that question eight years ago when I joined the council, I'd say yes to that question, but actually what I've seen over the last 8 years is, first off, a better understanding of the gold market and then secondly, a higher level of willingness and desire to make sure they understand the market. So, I think you're right, the US tends to look inward a lot of times think about America first often, but I think there's a realization that there needs to be a broadening of education around real assets, particularly gold because amongst precious metals or all metals, it's really unique. So, I think there's a growing level of understanding and actually a willingness to understand it even more. And that's even more so, at the institutional level where we've had a lot of people who have been pushing back on the basis of saying, I don't need it or I don't understand it, or it's too hard. That's definitely changed over the last few years.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, I can kind of confirm that anecdotally just as I've been involved. When I first started writing about gold, it's probably mid 2015, 2016, somewhere I was a little bit nervous about it. I didn't want to be that weird gold bug dude. And there was definitely that kind of stereotype that surrounded people that were interested in precious metals. And I have seen over those years as well, they're kind of a more mainstreaming, it's not all just cooks and nut jobs who are interested in precious metals.
Joe Cavatoni: I couldn't agree with you more, Mike. When I was prior to the council, I was with the large asset management firm, Blackrock, and actually amongst all the things we had to offer in the ETF space, it was just another thing we had on the shelf. So, did I prioritize it? Not unless a client asked, but when you go now to look at what BlackRock's talking about, they're talking about managing your portfolio as an example, and they're saying things that you need to look at include things like gold. So, they're actually bringing it forward as that real asset, that hedge, and that's global. That's not just a US thing that's actually globally, that kind of research is coming out of Europe, but is applicable here in the Americas as well.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, it's really interesting. So, let's kind of talk about what's going on in the gold market right now. We saw a pretty quick runup in the price over the last 18 months
Joe Cavatoni: We hit. That's actually saying it likely. Yes, absolutely.
Mike Maharrey: I mean there's been, there was something like 40 record highs I think in 2024.
Joe Cavatoni: I'm going to embarrass myself right now and I've lost count. But let me just put it this way. We hit a record high in terms of the dollar price for gold all time, and actually we're now settling in terms of where we are in terms of the price level and that's actually an interesting moment for the gold market. But you are right, it's been a fast run up for sure.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah. Well let's talk about that settling in because that's kind of what I was driving at. We've been trading sideways basically in a range between let's say thirty two hundred and thirty four hundred for the last couple of months after we peaked it at 3,500 an ounce in April.
Joe Cavatoni: That's right.
Mike Maharrey: Do you see this as kind of a consolidation phase where everybody's kind of catching their breath and things are catching up? How do you see where we are in terms of the market dynamic right now?
Joe Cavatoni: Yeah, I think it's a good thing to unpack and I think it's best to start by giving people a level set on what to expect on average from gold. Now over the years, since ‘71 when the gold standard was lifted, to date, on average, you should be expecting again, on average about 8%, or what you would get from an equity portfolio from the gold price. So, what we've seen to date, which is somewhere in the range as we record this, about 25, 26% up. Yeah, that's actually well in excess of that. But there's good factors that have been why that has happened. Part of that is a shift in the administration, a shift in the political landscape in the US, and actually risk factors that have actually pushed risk haven assets, safe haven assets like gold to the fore for many people globally. So, it's actually been driven for the right reasons.
You are right. We're likely in a period of consolidation because market risk and uncertainty, which happens to be one of the bigger strategic drivers for gold for us, is still trying to settle in and trying to assess what are going to be the implications of trade renegotiations brought on by tariffs and the discussion out of the White House, but also, where we're going to end up seeing those relationships impact the US economy and more importantly, what it's going to mean for monetary policy, the role of the dollar, the US assets and reserve portfolios, which I think we'll get to as well. But these are all things that need a little more time to settle in. So, we've moved quick risk and uncertainty. Momentum has pushed us up, but you're seeing many investors, many central banks, many consumers holding right now with their gold assets not unwinding because they see an opportunity away from it. In addition, we're going to talk to retail and really jewelry on a global basis where right now the numbers have been weak, in the fact that high prices tend to keep people to keep their hand in their pocket and not pull the money out of their pocket to spend on things like jewelry. And there's also, a shift on the international side away from jewelry to investment, which I think we can talk to as well. But those are all the factors that are at play right now and you are right, we're consolidating momentum and different things that are going to push us short term. We'll continue to ebb and flow the price, but that level right now is settling in for sure.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, it's so, hard just from a psychological standpoint to wrap your head around, you mentioned uncertainty. I think that's the word of the day. And if nothing else, Trump is certainly unpredictable, I guess is a fair term to use. He uses things like tariffs as kind of a bargaining chip, so, you don't really know exactly what he really intends to do as compared to what is being said in order to get something else done. I can't imagine trying to make any kind of mid to long-term plans right now as an entrepreneur or a business person or as an investor. It's really tough out there in that sense.
Joe Cavatoni: It's not easy. And I think trying to stay on top of the news cycle that at one point you might even say to yourself, it's hard to even attempt to do so. And we actually always encourage investors to think about gold strategically in long-term. And while it's important to pay attention to the price today, realize that the economic expansion and the growth factors behind gold will keep it moving in the correct direction for a long-term strategic hold. But yeah, you're right. It's really challenging right now and actually underlying a lot of what is being dealt with in terms of how the administration is handling these factors are factors that are still very strong in support the case for gold, a burgeoning debt level, a new bill that's just going to add to that level of debt that the US is carrying the date of the US dollar as a reserve currency and it's purchasing power over time. So, again, those fundamentals are actually strong for the case for gold, but again, new cycles or new cycles and trying to stay on top of, it's very challenging. So, look beyond the immediate and think about the strategic and that'll help you kind of handle it in the short term at least.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, I'm really glad you said that. That's kind of my mantra as well. I think it's really easy to get caught up in the Twitter. Well, it’s not Twitter anymore – X. I can't get past it being Twitter, but the X news cycle where every time you go there there's this headline streaming down, it's like, oh my gosh. And we react to that and I think a lot of times people do forget some of those structural long-term things, as you mentioned, the national debt, who's going to pay for the continued borrowing and those types of things that aren't going to be reflected in your X speed as much. So, I think that's a really good point for investors to keep their minds wrapped around. I want to talk a little bit about Central Bank gold buying because that's been a huge part of this recent rally. It's kind of been the constant in terms of demand. We've seen over a thousand tons of gold gobbled up by central banks three years straight, which I think it's double or maybe even more than double kind of what the trend was before that.
Joe Cavatoni: Sure.
Mike Maharrey: So, as we're looking at this, it seems like that we are still seeing this buying. It slowed down a little bit, but there was a recent survey that came out done by the World Gold Council that really seems to indicate that the dynamics in place for central bank gold buying are solid and it's going to continue. What were some things in that survey that you noted that maybe surprised you or you think are really worth bringing forth to the public?
Joe Cavatoni: We definitely encourage your listeners to take a look at the survey. This is our eighth year of the survey and actually we have 73 central banks that have responded. It's the most we've had since we've introduced the survey results. And actually what we're doing is we're giving further clarity to what is now a 15-year trend that's been happening. And you'll right to point out the last three years have had record or near record flows and net thousand ton a year number is extreme. That's about 20% of the annual demand in gold on a global basis. So, it's major and it's material. Now what's really fun to look into when you take a look at the report is you're going to find that nearly half of the respondents are talking about increasing their overall gold holdings within the next 12 months. Now some of them might be small relative to the overall size of the market, but what's important is that has nearly doubled from last year's results.
So, you went from 29 to nearly 50% of the respondents saying more gold in the next 12 months. Most of the respondents, 95%, have said, “Hey, listen, we think that all gold reserves amongst all central banks are likely to see an increase over the next 12 months,” and that's up from about 80% the year before. And actually, the thing that I am paying close attention to personally, and I think the organization is as well, is the question around fiat currencies now, mainly the US dollar but also, the euro. These central banks are saying this is going to be a larger portion. Gold's going to be a larger portion of my reserve portfolio at the expense of fiat currencies including the dollar and including the Euro. And actually what's quite interesting about this is that most recently in the media we're hearing that gold reserves exceeds what the Euro is playing as a component of central bank reserve portfolios. So, you're already seeing this develop. Now look, the dollar and dollar based assets are still a major asset in reserves, and I'm not sitting here telling you that it's going to be a de dollarization. They're just looking for the right kind of diversification so, that they can maintain a healthy reserve portfolio and you have the right kind of characteristics along with it, and that's 76% of the respondents saying we need more gold and we're going to do that at the expense of fiat currency.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, yeah, that's definitely the trend that I've seen as well. You mentioned De-dollarization, and I actually write about that a lot, and I think a lot of people look at it as kind of a conspiracy theory, and I think it depends on how you define that word, right? I mean if we're talking de-dollarization, and all of a sudden there's not going to be a dollar, that it will no longer be the world reserve currency, I personally think that that's an extreme case when people make that. But I do think it's fair to say that there are a lot of countries that are trying to minimize or shrink their exposure to the dollar for various reasons. Do you think that's a fair statement?
Joe Cavatoni: I think it's a fair statement, and I think you've rightfully pointed out that the dollar is not going away and the dollar is critical and vital in trade relationships and settlement of trade and it's going to stick around, but it is a diversifying behavior that we're seeing and it actually is not only with dollars but dollar-based assets. And that's actually really kind of an interesting dynamic because when we start thinking about what role treasuries play or bonds for that matter, it's kind of consistent with what we're hearing on the institutional investment side and even on the retail side, which is people are trying to find the right kind of diversifier so, that when risk assets are selling off or they need liquidity, they know they've got the right kind of asset. So, I think you've got it spot on in terms of what we would say. And I think that the way you're describing the dollar future is, right on.
Mike Maharrey: As you're talking to folks out there, and particularly when we're mentioning dollar-denominated assets, particularly Treasuries, are you hearing a lot of worry about the overall levels of debt and the seemingly the lack of willingness, I guess I should say, of Congress to really address the spending? Is that something that's percolating out there among the investors that you're talking to?
Joe Cavatoni: It most certainly is. I think most people are incapable of understanding how the US gets itself out of the trouble that it's in with this. And I think that that is why people are starting to understand real assets, assets that have the right kind of characteristics that I need during systemic moments, risk moments, drawdowns. These are the types of things that are on people's minds for sure. Now, we've only talked about that debt burden, but you also, have certain moments in our timeline of the 2030 when you have the social security gap that's going to basically play out. These are big moments that are fast approaching, and I think people are starting to really swallow that pill now to say the administration and the legislation need to start thinking about how they're going to deal with this because it's fast coming. 2030 is not that far off. And if we hit that moment where we hit the cliff, then we've got real moments that are just not talk, but moments of reality.
Mike Maharrey: So, in my experience, in my political observations, they're probably going to really come to that reckoning, I would say probably December of 2029. That's just the nature of politics though, right? Because politicians are incentivized to worry about the short term, right? They're worried about the next election cycle and they're not worried about 2030.
Joe Cavatoni: Couldn't say that better. That is exactly the construct of what they're dealing with. I mean, we're already talking about whether or not the administration's going to have an effective platform to get anything done because come next year we're going to start seeing people gearing up for early auction cycle. So, it is too short term in nature. And actually there needs to be a realization on the Hill that we have to actually face the reckoning. And I think that you're right to point it out. I don't want to sound like doomsday, but the reality is it might end up being a fall of 2029 when it gets dealt with, but I think that there's a lot of bright people who are around the legislation that are basically saying, let's start talking about it now. It might be motivating different pieces of legislation that are coming out as well. I think when you start talking about stable coins, the role the dollar could play in that, these are all interesting ideas and all things that we're keeping a very close watch on because it could be impacting whether dollars flow from money market funds today to a new instrument or come to gold, which I think for now we expect those flows to come to us in the gold market because right, kind of diversification benefit.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, my cynicism was showing a little bit there. People that listen to me know that though, that won't surprise 'em a bit. So, what are some of the public policy ideas that you guys are kind of working on over at the World Gold Council to kind of help streamline and support the gold market?
Joe Cavatoni: Well, I think there's a couple of things that we've got in flight. The first is that actually in the US specifically, we've got bipartisan support for a piece of legislation at the senate level and the bill that's been introduced, Senate Bill 989, which basically talks about precious metals parody, and the act that could actually allow mutual funds in the US to not be given a punitive tax treatment if they own gold, silver, platinum, or palladium, but to bring it into the good income category. And that's actually a really exciting opportunity. Now, the bill in its own right isn't big enough to make its way into the big beautiful bill, but it's still a very much an open topic and an open item that we're working on and what that could mean for communities and investors. And actually the investment landscape is that a mutual fund could now see that they could own gold as a component of their portfolio without a punitive tax treatment and actually get that kind of diversification into an equity portfolio or a bond portfolio or diversified portfolio.
And that could make its way into mutual funds that sit in 401Ks or retirement accounts across the board. So, that's a really exciting piece of work, but again, it's making its way through the legislative process, and it's hard yards to get it done, but we're getting resounding support for that bill across the board.
Second, I think what's important for us to highlight is that we see a growing need to address on the supply side artisanal and small-scale gold mining. That's an area where we think at prices like we're talking about 3,200 to 3,400, these communities in far reaching corners of the markets where they are scratching at the hillside for a meager living have actually been mechanized by the wrong types of people, whether it's illegal gangs, the Wagner Group, drug dealers, whatever the case may be, they are stepping in mechanizing these types of artisanal mining, and they're actually profiteering at the expense of these people and these local markets.
So, our initiative there is to really tackle down what we can and see if we can work to get a political signal from the G-7 nations and G-20 nations to say the ideas that you're working with, which include increased activity with processing plans, potentially legitimate and trusted buying programs with central banks, and also, using technology to track and trace this goal, these kinds of factors being worked on to connect this artisanal mining, make it legitimate, make it safer, think about the humanitarian side of it, get the kids out of the mine, get mercury out of the mines, basically try and legitimize the space as much as we can so, that can go along with the law enforcement that the US government, for example, uses to call this type of activity. So, give this money, this mining, this processing a legitimate safe and healthy way to get it done and bring it back to the economies of those local markets and get it out of the hands of the wrong types of people.
And that's a lot of work to get done and to get done on a global scale, but we've got a good body of work that's underway to plan and push again, to get those political signals from governments like the US and the Canadian government to say, Hey, look, we see this, we support this. And that could go well with existing proposed legislation from Senators Cornyn and Kaine, for example, that have taken up the mantle of saying, “Hey, look, we see this as a hotspot in places like Venezuela.” So, there's already a legislation that's focusing on the idea, and we're actually looking to see how we can help move that along.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, that's fantastic. That's a really, really important initiative. Have you followed at all some of the things that are going on at the state level in terms of gold and silver and sound money? We've had a number of states that have rolled back some of the taxation on bullion. We've seen a few states actually reaffirming gold and silver as legal tender. There's a few states that have authorized gold reserves. So, some of these things that we're kind of seeing going on at the global level with diversification into precious metals, we're seeing that at the state level. Have you followed this at all?
Joe Cavatoni: Absolutely. Followed it actually have consulted with many of the different states in terms of the work that they've been doing, and they've actually even testified in certain instances in support of some of the legislation. I think what's important to understand is again, state treasuries and the pensions that may be run at the state level may already have the ability to make an investment in gold. But I think what's actually interesting about the opportunity is that these states are thinking a little bit more holistically about how gold could play a role in its community. So, they're looking at their own reserves, they're looking at removing impediments to owning gold, and that starts, like you've said, with removal of some of the local state taxes, but then also, thinking about how that diversification can help them over time, give people in their community the choice to either own gold and maybe even at some point use it to settle tax bills or maybe even use it in the construct of a payment process. A lot of work still get done there, but more important than anything is the fact that they're recognizing very much like a central bank is that there's a role for gold in their reserves that they hold on their own level. So, they see the fact that they need to have diversification. They can get it in the case of gold and in silver as well, and that they could actually even give it to the hands of the community to say, Hey, look, you can benefit from this as well.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, there was a really interesting bill that was just signed into law in Texas. Of course, they have a gold depository there that is state run, and this bill creates the, or at least lays the groundwork for, a payment system, an electronic payment system based on gold that's held in a depository. So, that kind of goes to what you're saying about the ability to use gold and silver even in everyday transactions. What are kind of some of the pushback that you see from the state level? What's kind of the objections that you hear to this? In my brain, it's like, how can you object to this? But I know that they're out there.
Joe Cavatoni: It's interesting because when you start getting into the discussion over how the treasury might use its funds, you might end up similar when you start talking to a management company that's running money that they know best and they don't like to be told by a piece of legislation that they need to own something. But actually in the healthy context, you're at least bringing it to the fore to say, you can open the door and you should take a look. And actually that's where we've been stepping in. We've been working with certain treasury teams on saying, let's take a look at diversification in what you hold today and how you can actually see the benefits of it. So, there's been a little bit of a pushback around that. There's been less pushback on the point of not understanding gold, but I think that there also, might be some pushback in terms of being realistic on how quickly you can actually bring gold or silver for that matter into the payment system in an effective way without triggering federal level taxes.
Because even though you might remove a tax at a local level, what you aren't necessarily doing right now is removing the collectibles rate that's basically applicable at a federal level. So, that's still an open item that needs to be addressed, but I think most of the states that we're talking to about it are understanding, interested, really willing to learn, and actually most likely favorably disposed to the idea of continuing to do more work on it if not passing the legislation to get the thing moving forward. Florida, Utah, Wyoming, all states that have actually moved in the right direction with it. But again, part of this is coming back to people being told what to do in their jobs as opposed to having an opportunity to make the best decision as a fiduciary in that seat. So, we have to work carefully with them to make sure that they're given the right call and they're given the right opportunity to make the right decision,
Mike Maharrey: Right. It's all about putting it into a politically viable structure that's palatable and workable within a state government system. I think an important aspect of this too that a lot of people might not even realize is just the process is important. I've had the opportunity as well to testify before some state legislative committees, and it is, it's fun doing it because it is an educational opportunity. And for the most part, folks ask really good questions. And I think for a lot of them they've never really considered a lot of the ramifications of this, especially folks that come from backgrounds that aren't necessarily rooted in finance and business and stuff. So, it's an important process, and I think a lot of people get frustrated with politics because it moves so, slowly, but it's important because that groundwork has to be laid as well. I agree completely. Is there any momentum on Capitol Hill to address the capital gains taxes on gold and silver, or is that kind of a,
Joe Cavatoni: So, we've spent a few years talking with many of the members of Congress about it, and actually in the previous administration we felt that would probably be best to see where that administration, the Biden administration, landed in terms of capital gains on any investment. At one point, the collectibles rate 28% was actually potentially looking to be less than what was going to be applied to stocks and bonds. So, we basically took the foot a little bit off the accelerator. But what I think needs to be understood is when you start talking about taxes and impacting taxes in the administration, whether it's Democratic or Republican or whatever the case may be, what you have to understand is whether you're going to add revenue or reduce revenue for the government. And right now, I think the government's looking at raising revenue and cutting costs. So, for us to get the right kind of momentum and the right kind of attention to the bill, we think the best thing for us to do is to increase the use of gold in the portfolio.
That's why we put forward a bill, allowing the $34 trillion of mutual funds to say, Hey, look, have at it, make some ownership of gold. That's actually a revenue raiser, net revenue raiser potentially for the government. And actually cutting the taxes on capital gains might be a revenue reducer. So, the moment right now for us to hold on, that is probably the right thing to do. Just sit back and let's let the tea leaves play out a little bit and see how they read. And most people understand that collectibles is not the right rate. We'd like to see consumption continue to grow, then we could say even at the inline rate with bonds and equities, you'll see more revenue. You'll just have greater demand.
Mike Maharrey: Yeah, I love that you've thought through this in such a strategic way that's very refreshing as opposed to sometimes when you get folks that are involved in issue advocacy, they don't pay attention to those political realities and dynamics. And if you don't, you're not going to get anything done.
Joe Cavatoni: Mike, the years I've been spending working for the council in Washington, I have a lot of gray hair for your listeners to see. It comes at a price. It's a long process to go through the Washington gauntlet, but you have to stay at it. And it's actually important just to stay on message and stay clear on your message and your ask has to be clear and understanding what the legislators are looking for, what's right for their constituents.
Mike Maharrey: Well, I'm going to get you out on this one. There's a lot of other stuff I'd love to cover. I'm going to have to have you back on again at some point because I'd love to get into a little bit of the dichotomy between east and west and the way they think about gold, but I don't want to try to delve into that right now. But I do want to give you an opportunity to let folks know where they can follow your work, where they can follow things at the World Gold Council and maybe highlight anything that has come out recently that folks should check out.
Joe Cavatoni: Sure. I mean, just simply put, gold.org is our main website. It talks about all the initiatives that the council has going on a global basis. Goldhub.com is where research data and insights around the gold market can be found. I talked a little bit about our central bank survey, but more important than that, we have monthly production on ETF flows, the gold market outlook in terms of a commentary every month. And actually in a few weeks, you'll actually have our Gold Demand Trends report. Now, the reason I want to highlight that, while it might be backward looking in terms of who's bought what, it helps you see those use cases that are very clear, investment, central banks, jewelry, and also, technology, and assess where the trends are going there and judging their behavior forward. To give you a flavor for what it could mean for the price, both short term and strategically long term. So, that reports on the way the gold demand trends second quarter release, that'll give you a flavor for what central banks are doing, investors are doing, and other consumers of gold are doing on a global basis.
Mike Maharrey: I highly encourage people to avail themselves of the resources that the World Gold Council puts out. It's one of the websites that I visit literally every day, or at least every workday, and there's just so, much valuable information and data and analysis there. So, folks definitely need to check that out. And of course you go to MoneyMetals.com/news, summarize and highlight a lot of that stuff, but sometimes it's good to go right to the source and you can get all of that data right there and a lot of great charts and graphs and stuff that really helps as well.
Joe Cavatoni: Mike, just today we released a good piece that starts giving people a way of framing their thoughts around what could take the wind out of the sail for gold. So, we talked about a range of price for gold, a piece that we put out today starts talking about some of the historical moments when gold has sold off after a runup, and actually what are the factors that led to that. And then you can start looking on your own as an individual to say, am I seeing factors that might be giving me a signal? It's a great piece. Really quick read doesn't get into too much on the analytical side, but it does talk to the specifics around factors to keep a watch on. Really good piece.
Mike Maharrey: Absolutely fantastic and outstanding. So, head over to gold.org. And Joe, I really appreciate you taking the time to spend with me today. It's very pleasure and just a wealth of information. So, thank you so, much. I'm sure folks have garnered some good tidbits from this discussion. And again, I would love to have you back on in the near future and talk about some of these other issues that unfortunately, we are not doing a two hour podcast, or maybe fortunately we're not doing a two hour podcast here. So, I
Joe Cavatoni: Welcome the opportunity to come back and thank you very much for having me.
Mike Maharrey: Thank you.
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Another great interview there and it’s been wonderful to have a couple of different folks now from the World Gold Council join us on this podcast over the last few months, and I it was great to hear Joe’s very studied and informed view on what he’s been seeing in the gold market of late.
Well, that will do it for this week. Be sure to check back next Friday for our next Weekly Market Wrap Podcast. And don’t miss our second weekly podcast, the Money Metals Midweek Memo, hosted by Mike Maharrey and available each Wednesday. To check out any of our audio programs just visit<a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/podcasts"> MoneyMetals.com/podcasts</a> or find them on your favorite podcast platform of choice. And as a big help to us we would ask you to please like, subscribe, download and rate our podcasts. Doing so helps us extend the reach of this material.
Until next time, this has been Mike Gleason with <a href="https://www.moneymetals.com/">Money Metals Exchange</a>, thanks for listening and have a wonderful weekend everybody.

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